Update: Came across this very interesting piece on Robert Paterson’s blog. It ends with In short: As connectedness transforms knowledge, our education system is swinging–running–in the other direction. Do read it fully – Robert has linked to the original piece by David Weinberger there on his post.
Found two pieces of writing on the education system – had to share them here. Let the good old debate begin. Again.
Randal Moss from community mobilization writes about the Education Values of a Decaying System. I think we all keyed into fact that the education system is failing to educate itself on the new and useful skills and values of the modern age. Education is not a fad, but the ability to creatively think and analyze information are stalwarts in the real world. Communication is essential, but if you can not generate an original thought or put two clues together the ability to self express becomes moot.
And then Suketu Mehta in the NYTimes (thanks, Sonia for the pointer) on outsourcing fears and our education system.
When I moved to Queens, in New York City, at the age of 14, I found myself, for the first time in my life, considered good at math. In Bombay, math was my worst subject, and I regularly found my place near the bottom of the class rankings in that rigorous subject. But in my American school, so low were their standards that I was – to my parents’ disbelief – near the top of the class. It was the same in English and, unexpectedly, in American history, for my school in Bombay included a detailed study of the American Revolution. My American school curriculum had, of course, almost nothing on the subcontinent’s freedom struggle. I was mercilessly bullied during the 1979-80 hostage crisis, because my classmates couldn’t tell the difference between Iran and India. If I were now to move with my family to India, my children – who go to one of the best private schools in New York – would have to take remedial math and science courses to get into a good school in Bombay.
Ok, so Johnny Can’t Add But Suresh Venktasubramanian Can. I had written about this in a long-ago post Teaching – content v/s methodology ?
On the one hand, learning by rote and learning seemingly unnecessary things stifles curiousity and leaves the child unprepared for real world problem solving. And on the other, it builds a strong foundation – as Suketu Mehta says and Suresh Venkatsubramanian knows.
R.K.Narayan says this about his own school days – Among fruits, we were familiar with the mango, banana, guava, pomegranate and the grape but not the apple (much less an apple pie). To our eager questioning, the omniscient one, our English teacher would just state, it must be some stuff similar to our idli but prepared with an apple. This information was inadequate and one popped up to ask, but what would it taste like? Sweet or sour? We were left free to guess……. Yet, for all that, Narayan’s writing and creativity are clearly quite intact…
So where is the balance in the education system to be achieved – at what point does become stuff unnecessary and irrelevant? Is algaebra relevant but Shakespeare not? And where does education cease to excite and begin to stifle?
(This post is entirely in the thinking-out-aloud mode)
I think Atanu put it nicely in a comment on Rajesh’s blog sometime back when he said “the education system should equip us with general purpose skills, with the tools which are applicable in any area of study, rather than teach any set of specific areas of knowledge. The analogy is that it should teach us the ‘grammar’ and the ‘vocabulary’ of a language rather than make us memorise passages in that language.”
But in addition to the grammar and vocabulary, fundamentally, what we need to focus on is “learning to learn” and “learning to analyse, discriminate and apply” what we learn. I should know how to learn enough/more about any subject (of which I know little or nothing to start with) and also be able to think for myself and convince myself that what I’m learning makes sense, without blindly accepting it. Thanks to the Internet, it is today possible for an individual on his/her own to learn a subject to any level, but it still requires one to be able to know what to look for, how to find it and how to discriminate sources for quality.
I think memorising (I wouldn’t call it learning), whether it is school stuff or shlokas or songs or anything else, is a good technique, since it helps to train ourselves to remember what we learn. With the explosion of knowledge, there are so many things that we need to remember even in our own respective narrow fields, that memorising is useful, but only if we memorise what we actually learn and not delude ourselves that we have learnt something if we memorise it – we, in India, often mistake memorising for learning.
I went through an experience similar to Suketu Mehta’s, but from a slightly different perspective – that of a teacher. As a graduate student at Cornell University, I was a teaching assistant for a freshman-level (first year undergraduate) physics course on Mechanics. In my class, I found some students who had no idea of vectors, let alone calculus. I was amazed that they hadn’t learnt it in school. But it was possible for these students who knew no vectors or calculus to still opt for an engineering/physics major and learn the stuff in college.
I found that at the school-leaving level (Class XII), students in India are ‘taught’ more stuff than students in the U.S., thanks primarily to the syllabus which encompasses more in India at the Class XII level, though that is no guarantee that students actually ‘learn’ all of it. But four years later at the time when students graduate from college, students there tended to be more knowledgeable about the subjects they majored in, than students in India. Students by and large ‘learnt’ their stuff well in college in the U.S. I’d attribute this not to their excellent teachers (teachers are by and large average there too), but to the students’ strong motivation to learn.
Whenever I see articles like ‘people can’t do maths’ in the West, I am so tempted to point that somehow they still manage to do all the leading edge research. And though we Indians are very good at Maths, look at our research tradition and institutions. Any idea why?
Posting (pasting!) my comment on Abi’s blog in response to his post http://nanopolitan.blogspot.com/2005/07/suketu-mehta-in-nytimes.html and Badri’s comment on it.
Badri, Abi – I also think the Indian / any immigrant kids work harder because of the ‘opportunity’ that has been given them – something that they worked hard to get to and not dropped on their laps –
from a cultural / pop psychology perspective, I wonder if this also has something to do with the way we are taught from an early age to respect education – and teachers too…?
as for Mehta’s artcile (or the bit I quoted), I could relate to it immensely – I felt the same way when I did my post-grad studies in London – of cousre not just about basic math but about many things in general.
Satya, I agree, memorising is a great way to build concentration and learn quickly. but we mistake memorising for learning. and after that primary / middle school level is where I think we flounder – unable to translate bookish learning into practical and creative use…
Mridula, I do not quite agree with you on the ‘*do* all leading edge research’ – true, leading edge research mostly happens in the west but not always by westerners. These are two different things – the state of our research institutions (the not so good ones because I believe there are good and respectable research institutes in India) has less to do with our math ability and more with other factors like grants and governmental interference and so on.
(do read the johnny cant add link – is very interesting – written by an American)
Wow! This was an interesting read. I guess for the overall development – India and US should indulge in Student exchange Programmes starting from the Vth standard. Indians will be over excited and as told above – could finally end up doing better than what they usually did at India and the Western people will obviously do better.
Abt the Research stuff talked above – I guess its all oppurtunity. Indians dont have enough and there in the West, they lie in plenty.
There are multiple reasons for why research hasn’t taken off in India. Part of it is the lack of facilities, equipment, funds etc. The other (more potent IMO) is the thick layers of bureaucracy, and a lack of incentive (no “tenure track” kind of system, or performance based promotions etc). And though some of the best research is done in the States, not all of it is done by Americans……
It must also be said that (this is from my teaching experience here) though most of the students are what i’d call “below average” with their understanding of even basic concepts (especially anything involving even simple math), the good ones are sometimes outstanding. This clearly shows that the system can create superachievers, but only if they have taken the initiative to learn all that is offered. But it has to come from them, and there is no minimum standarization. The Indian system though (atleast in the better schools and colleges) has that, and so can produce a large number of “middle” achievers of consistent standard (the kind you need in a workforce), but there is little incentive to encourage superachievers.
Curiously enough Atanu Dey has a similar post on his blog today. So, I will post my comment from his blog here as well
I think the state of our education system depends on how you look at it. I think our Indian education system’s goal is to equip the student with knowledge that will enable him to earn a living. That means placing a lot of emphasis on the sciences. That is why Indians who come here to the United States feel they are way way ahead of the natives with respect to science and math. But in the States, the education system strives to create a well rounded individual with knowledge in all areas of life. But, it might not equip him with the tools needed to earn a living. Both education systems reflect, and are a product of the need of society in each country.
I also agree with Sunil’s point, the students I taught here during my TA days comprised both kinds : intelligent as well as a bit slow. The common characteristic between both kinds was a lack of motivation to really apply themselves to their work. I guess the difference between Indian and American approaches to education exists because in India because of competition and a scarcity of jobs, students automatically become more motivated to excel, here even someone with a 2 year associate degree can get a job quite easily. Hence, the lack of motivation to really slog.
I loved pouring over your thoughts on the differences between the US and Indian educational systems. I think there is a perception that education is based on the conferring of facts and educations so that they can be used in the future. I agree the US Systems aims for a well rounded student, yet I am convinced that we are not teaching enough critical thinking skills. Regardless of where you live the capacity to generate thought is the difference between creating and doing.
Hi Charu
There’s an old expression in the U.S. that goes: Those who can…do and those who can’t…teach. It reflects the opportunities available for people of ability. People with quantitative skills become engineers and scientists. Teaching isn’t lucrative in the U.S. so it attracts lemons. Vikram has a good post about this subject.
The reason why teacher in India are so good is because all those brainy well educated people had few lucrative opportunities in the private sector until recently. So many of these people went into teaching.
A good example of these phenomena is the difference in my wife’s mother and my wife. My wife’s mother was an excellent biology teacher. She had the talent to do other things, but job opportunities for women of my mother-in-law’s skills were not so many. My went to graduate school in the U.S. (and of course married me) so she had the opportunity to work in the U.S. job market. She would never consider teaching in a K-12 school – she wouldn’t make even 50% (maybe not 35%) of her current salary.
Should we pay teachers more? I wouldn’t be so sure. A good education system might be a bad sign for the general health for the economy. And it does no good to pay everyone more.
Very interesting. I am agree with all that you have said. I am a high math teacher in the U.S. I am from India and moved to the U.S just two years back.
There are so many jargons and so much fluff surrounding education here that it sometimes irritates me.
At the same time I was so astonished when I heard one of 7th grade students talk to the editor of a local newspaper. He was on the phone with him trying to schedule an appointment for interviewing him for the school magazine. On boy! I don’t think I can ever talk so well.
Correction – I agree with all that you have said.
A recent news report makes a startling revelation that it is easier to get admitted into one of the best business schools in the world (like Harvard, Stanford and Kellogg) rather than trying to sweat it out to secure a rank in the CAT examinations for admission into one of the IIMs of our own country! In the foreign schools, the applicant to student ratio is of the order of 7 to 10 per 100 whilst for IIMs it is of the order of 1 in 100!! More shocking news follows: IIM Ahmedabad, the only Indian business school included in the rankings ranks as low as 64th in the world – the reason? It is not international enough.
You know schools are like stepping stones or what you call hand holding. They are good in what they do. They teach you the basics needed for you to improve yourself and prepare yourself to what you become. They are not supposed to create your profile, they are there to help you to create your own profile. If you think IIMs (or the international business schools) creates your profile, think again IIMs (or the international business schools) only adds as a sub section in your profile. The remaining majority of the profile, you have to create yourself. This is the same for any other field of study.
Prasoon, isn’t V standard rather young for people to go off on exchange programs? 🙂 yes, opportunity both exists and is made beter use of in the west.
Sunil, you are right – but super achievers can be found both here and there – except in case of India, our super achievers all migrate to ‘there’ :))
gawker, am not with you on this one – “I think our Indian education system’s goal is to equip the student with knowledge that will enable him to earn a living” – in fact, quite on the contrary, think our eductaion system is good theoritical learning but almost completely useless when it comes to practical real life problems – even earning a living…
Randy, thanks for dropping by – I have been reading your blog for a while now though I’ve never left comment there before – what i find lacking in our system here is that children are not encouraged to push a thought ahead and see where it takes them – I guess sometimes it is also a function of too many students and too few teachers
Michael, i read Vikram;s post and this is what I saif there too – I am surprised because all along in India, the eneral feleing is that people who get into the teaching proifession are those who have not found other “lucrative” jobs – kind of those who stayed behind in the employment game –
one serious difference I see in teachers here and abroad – though I can comment only about higher learning is that here, teachers kind of shut their minds to the outside world once they are in the profession – as opposed to this, I found my professors in London vey well informed about the latest trends and research in their own fields.
lakshmi, I think kids in the west have a lot more confidence and are self-assured, as compared to kids the same age in India. I wonder why…? is it that we dont encourage kids to speak freely in our society – not against elders, against teachers, against parents…? btw, I liked your blog a lot 🙂
gangadhar, I dont know if it easier to get admitted into those colleges but I do know that gmat is a lot easier than CAT! ya, it is sad that for all the focus that our education policy has given to higher eduation, at the cost of elementary education, we have few institutes of world class…
Senthil, I think education plays a big role in one’s ‘profile’…
From Abinandan on email :
Charu, I am sorry to be late to the party here! My take is rather
similar to Satya’s. Kathy Sierra has a flashier articulation of
essentially the same thing (here);
though Kathy’s take is about college education, but still relevant.
What we consider to be ‘good’ schools (which are usually urban,
private ones) are good only in loading students with tons of work. In
some sense, they are really expensive pressure cookers. Some kids do
thrive in such schools; but, I am sure most students just get burnt
badly.
The real tragedy is in our government-run rural schools: poor
facilities, no blackboards, no toilets; and, their teachers are not
good because (a) the salaries are not good, and (b) the jobs are in
rural areas that no one wants to go to.
The salaries in urban private schools are not great, either; but,
people can get fired for bad teaching — something that is not
possible in government-run schools. In our country, with so much of
un- and under-employment, there is still a large pool of people that
our private schools can, and do, hire — and fire, if their
performance is not good. The hi-fi teachers that Michael and Vikram
are talking about are the ones that rise through this wild, Darwinian
process.
As for what the students need to learn at school, I am with Uma.
If we let our kids be kids, have fun and enjoy their childhood, they
can — much later in life, when they can actually handle them — learn
(and worry) about vectors and relativity and chemical kinetics and
asexual reproduction and double entry book keeping and Karl Popper and
Adam Smith and Ayodhya. Satya’s comment, based on his personal
experience, shows that this indeed is the case: while many American
students enter college with some ‘deficiency’, they do pick up most of
the necessary skills in college courses.
Bottomline: Teaching pre-calculus to thirteen year olds is cruel and
unusual punishment! The fact that some students thrive in a pressure
cooker-like environment should not be an excuse for perpetrating this
crime.
Gangadhar, I would be very wary of the Harvard-IIM A comparisons because the applicant pool is not comparable. In india, anyone who has any aspirations of entering a business school will automatically take the CAT which is the main input to admission to the IIMs. Hence the 1 in 100 chance o fbeing admitted. In the US, only a subset of people who take the GMAT apply to Harvard etc because of the costs of application, hence fewer (but more qualified) applicants apply. So in the end, I think it is equally difficult (if not more) to get into Harvard, Stanford, Wharton etc as to get into an IIM. Disclaimer: I am from an IIM.
Charu, teachers in the US/US style ssystem of education are definitely more aware of current trends and research because their tenure depends on it, at least for graduate education. And tenure is everything in academia in the US. In general research is the prestigious thing to do (at least in b-schools) and teaching is a by-product.
And finally, while I agree that there is no need to burden children with calculus and so on, I for one, wish that my maths education had been more rigorous (I am not an engineer and did little maths in college, as I was an arts student). Graduate school education here can be highly math-oriented even for fields like marketing and a basic comfort with math does help! Its not so much about knowing everything as being comfortable with the language of mathematics, a comfort, I think that comes from using it regularly.
Neela
Neela
Neela, I dont know about the US – my experience in the UK has been that professors and teachers also keep on with their own research along with their teaching – which is another reason they are well informed (embarrassingly more well informed than most students)
As for comfort wiht math, I think it has to do not just with using it regularly or rigor but also the way it is taught at school – math for me was sheer terror – and I am still very number unfriendly – although I have done advanced statistics (remember, anything with numbersis math for me!)till graduate level – my only memories of school level math are – actually I have blanked out here 🙂
Hi Charu, Thanks for posting my last comment (No. 18) for me. It is probably the two links in that comment that prevented it from being accepted.
I am going to try to post a link here; let me see if it works!
Tyler Cowen asks Why are we organizing our kids so much?, and provides a few hypotheses that may explain the trends.
Fantastic! It worked!!
So, here is another: A while ago, slashdotters were asked for ideas on Improving Education. Check out the discussion. This post also has links to earlier discussions on the value of homework, and of grammar …
yes it worked! I have a choosy and moody blog 🙂
thanks, will check them out…
Hello All,
I am Indian and moved to America last year and started grad school this year.I am currently doing paper on the diffeence in the Ameican and the Indian school system and belive me that this blog is one of the foundational resources of my paper. Ofcourse all the data I am going to use will be accordingly credited. But to tell you te truth this has been one of the toughest assignments for me as I thought I was the only one who was feeling the disparity and reading so much of stuff here I am glad to tell you that you and I are not alone, Once I finish my paper I would post it for everyone to make comments one.